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In the circuit below, a switching signal (10 kHz) from V1, which has a differential voltage of 3.3 V, is isolated and fed into an op-amp configured as a differential amplifier. My question is: will the op-amp be able to measure the differential voltage, or will both inputs be considered floating since there is no ground reference connection between the secondary side and the OP AMP GND reference?

I read that if a high-value resistor is added to the non-dotted terminal of the transformer secondary, the op-amp will be able to measure the differential voltage. How does adding a high-value resistor help in this case?

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4 Answers 4

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The output of this differential amplifier, if it had no constraints on the range of potentials it could actually produce, is:

$$ V_{OUT} = A(V_X - V_Y) $$

Here \$A\$ is gain, which in your case is \$A=\frac{100{\rm k\Omega}}{100{\rm k\Omega}} = 1\$. \$V_X\$ and \$V_Y\$ are the potentials at the ends of the transformer's secondary winding. Forget for the moment what those actual potentials are, just understand that the output is a function of the difference between them only.

The problem you have is that there is a constraint on the output range - set by the op-amp's supply potentials. If that difference is, say, \$V_X - V_Y = -1{\rm V}\$, how on earth is that op-amp supposed to produce an output \$V_{OUT}=-1{\rm V}\$ if its two supply potentials are ground (0V) and +5V? It cannot, so you must either provide the op-amp with a negative supply so that it can actually produce a negative output, or bias the system somehow so that the output is also centered somewhere between 0V and +5V.

I presume your question is about the latter. How do we center the output at, say, +2.5V (half way), and what will be the consequences for absolute potentials \$V_X\$ and \$V_Y\$? The solution is to provide a very low impedance source of +2.5V, which you employ instead of ground for the resistor divider at the non-inverting input:

schematic

simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab

\$V_{REF}\$ becomes an offset for the output, so that the input-output relationship is now:

$$ V_{OUT} = (V_X - V_Y) + V_{REF} $$

This is how you bias the output, but it biases the inputs too, if they are floating, as is the transformer winding. If you do the math, you'll find that the completely isolated transformer winding between X and Y will have its ends shifted to potentials also within the supply range, unless the op-amp output is saturated.

That is how you bias a differential amplifier like this. Your description of adding "a high value resistor somewhere, something, something" is so vague that I cannot possibly imagine what it means. And since the winding is isolated, whether you use the dotted or non-dotted side is irrelevant. All that changes is whether you are measuring \$V_X-V_Y\$ or \$V_Y-V_X\$.

Just for completeness, it's very unlikely that you have a low impedance source of +2.5V just lying around, so in practice you would probably employ some equivalent, using Thevenin's theorem and the existing supplies of 0V and +5V:

schematic

simulate this circuit

Those two are functionally identical, and the version on the right looks suspiciously like R6 and \$V_{REF}\$ in my schematic above. Therefore you can replace R6 and \$V_{REF}\$ with the the left-hand version:

schematic

simulate this circuit

$$ \begin{aligned} V_{OUT} &= (V_X - V_Y) + 2.5{\rm V} \\ \\ \end{aligned} $$


The question paraphrased is "what are absolute potentials \$V_X\$ and \$V_Y\$?". Here's how you might go about answering that. Start with the basic circuit, with no supply constraints to limit output voltage range:

schematic

simulate this circuit

Thousands of times before us engineers have already calculated the relationship between \$V_{OUT}\$, \$V_X\$ and \$V_Y\$. Assuming \$\frac{R_6}{R_5}=\frac{R_8}{R_7}\$:

$$ \begin{aligned} V_{OUT} &= \frac{R_6}{R_5}(V_X-V_Y) + V_{REF}\\ \\ &= V_X-V_Y + V_{REF} \\ \\ \end{aligned} $$

We'll treat the op-amp as a voltage source producing \$V_{OUT}\$ according to that relationship:

schematic

simulate this circuit

That's a bit hard to follow still, so I'll redraw it here, rearranged for ease of reading:

schematic

simulate this circuit

There are some resistors in series that can be combined into single-resistor equivalents:

schematic

simulate this circuit

That's pretty easy to solve for \$V_X\$ and \$V_Y\$, if you apply KCL, KVL and Ohm's law. This might not be the easiest way, but it is rigourous:

$$ \begin{aligned} V_{OUT} - V_J + V_{IN} - V_K - V_{REF} &= 0 \\ \\ V_{OUT} - IR_J + V_{IN} - IR_K - V_{REF} &= 0 \\ \\ V_{OUT} + V_{IN} - V_{REF} &= IR_J + IR_K \\ \\ I(R_J + R_K) &= V_{OUT} + V_{IN} - V_{REF} \\ \\ I &= \frac{V_{OUT} + V_{IN} - V_{REF}}{R_J + R_K} \\ \\ V_{OUT} &= V_X - V_Y + V_{REF}\\ \\ &= V_{IN} + V_{REF} \\ \\ I &= \frac{V_{IN} + V_{REF} + V_{IN} - V_{REF}}{R_J + R_K} \\ \\ &= \frac{2V_{IN}}{R_J + R_K} \\ \\ \end{aligned} $$

With a value for current \$I\$, we can now find absolute potentials \$V_X\$ and \$V_Y\$ (refer to the schematic to see how KVL yields these next two relationships):

$$ \begin{aligned} V_X &= V_{REF} + IR_K \\ \\ V_Y &= V_X - V_{IN} \\ \\ \end{aligned} $$

Of course this only works if the op-amp is not saturated. Once the output gets stuck near a supply potential, and can't extend any further, the relationship \$V_{OUT}=V_{IN}+V_{REF}\$ will no longer be true. The algebra here will therefore only be valid for \$V_{IN}\$ where the corresponding \$V_{OUT}\$ lies between 0V and +5V, or however close the the op-amp output can get to those extremes.

All this maths is done for you by simulators, and while it's not hard to do by hand, as I did here, it's probably much, much simpler to simulate the design and verify that you get the \$V_{OUT}\$ you want for all expected \$V_{IN}\$.

There's one more caveat that we didn't address, and that's what happens at P and Q. These are the op-amp's direct inputs, which have constraints on their acceptable range too, detailed in the op-amp's datasheet. It's equally important to ensure that \$V_P\$ and \$V_Q\$ never fall outside those limits, for which more algebra is required, and which simulators can do much more easily than I could.

So simulate, that's the short answer, and be thankful you don't have to do this algebra every time, like people had to not so long ago.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Thanks for the detailed explanation . if Vref is not used and other end of R6 is grounded ( original circuit in the question ) in that case , how does op-amp figure out the input voltage when the input is pure differential because Vx and Vy in classic textbook circuit of differential amp are two different voltage source referenced to ground which is also the -VEE of op-amp. when the voltage source is pure differential , where op-amp fixes the reference to calculate the Vx-Vy ? \$\endgroup\$ Commented Oct 31 at 19:11
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    \$\begingroup\$ @Ronnie The moment you connect X and Y to the amplifier, they no longer "float", because their potentials are set by all the resistors to various places. If you used voltage sources to set \$V_X\$ and \$V_Y\$, then those resistances can't influence \$V_X\$ and \$V_Y\$ at all, but since the transformer winding is floating (and specifying only the difference \$V_X-V_Y\$), the resistors can and do influence the absolute potentials \$V_X\$ and \$V_Y\$. How to work out what those potentials would be? KCL, KVL, Ohm's law, and the golden rule for negative feedback with an op-amp: \$V_P=V_Q\$. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 1 at 2:23
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Ronnie I caved in and added a demonstration of how to calculate \$V_X\$ and \$V_Y\$. It's not pretty, but it does show how the system "chooses" those potentials, if the source of their potential difference is floating, like a transformer winding. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 1 at 4:09
  • \$\begingroup\$ Thanks for going the extra mile. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 1 at 5:33
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Your circuit cannot detect any signal level below ground from the transformer since the op amp has just a single positive supply voltage, but the transformer will generate a plus and minus signal from the 10kHz source.
You need to bias the input so the output is about 2.5V.
That way you can produce both the plus and minus portion of the waveform.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ signal from generator is unipolar switching between two positive voltages. how op-amp detect voltage if none of the input signal is referenced to op-amps reference (GND) ? Source V2 is like battery type independent source and to measure its voltage its reference should be same as op-amp reference ? I am not able to understand how op-amp is finding reference . \$\endgroup\$ Commented Oct 31 at 16:04
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An opamp such as the 491 does not have an explicit GND pin. In order for the opamp to operate within its linear region, it needs some kind of DC reference to keep the signals literally between the rails.

R1 in the lower schematic is not needed because R6 in both schematics provides a GND reference for the circuit's operation.

BUT -

The 491 input common mode voltage range does not extend below the device's negative rail. IOW, because your circuit has only a single supply voltage, the input stage cannot handle inputs that extend below GND. Some opamps are designed specifically to work in this condition, but the 491 is not.

A possible solution for this is to replace R6 with two 200 K resistors, one to Vcc and one to GND. This will establish the circuit's DC operating point at 2.5 V, squarely in the middle of the input range spec. The Thevenin equivalent resistance is 100K, so the circuit gain and common mode rejection should be unaffected.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ considering a voltage source as shown in the 3rd image on secondary side , for Op-amp to understand the common mode voltages , -ve terminal of source V2 needs to be referenced to GND terminal because any bias current leaving out of +ve terminal of V2 will search for its -Ve terminal to complete the ckt and not GND ? is this understanding correct ? \$\endgroup\$ Commented Oct 31 at 15:55
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You will have a differential voltage at the input, but they will not be floating.

Looking at the first schematic. Imagine that your differential signal at R5 and R7 is 1V, so replace the 1mH with a voltage source of 1V. With the given resistors the output of the amplifier will be 1V also. From there you can start to calculate the voltages at the different node. Again in this case calculate the current through the resistors:

Vout - (Vdiff) = (1V - (-1V))/400000 ohm = 5uA

So the voltage at the non-inverting input (+) is 5uA * 100K = 0.5V and the same has to apply for the inverting input (-) = 0.5V.

If the input is -1V like a sine (transformator), your opamp inputs would be -0.5V.

So you have to lookout for the common mode voltage at the input of the opamp, in other words how close are the inputs to the supply rails. You can look that up in the component dataheets and the type you have is specified to be rail-to-rail and will therefore not support the negative part of the input.

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