2
$\begingroup$

Example. Let $I_n = [1/n, 1]$, which is clearly closed, and consider $$S=\bigcup_{n=2}^{\infty}I_n=[1/2,1]\cup[1/3,1]\cup[1/4,1]\cdots\tag{1}$$ This is the set $$S=\bigg\{x\bigg\lvert x\in \mathbb{R},\, \frac1n\le x\le 1\, \text{for some n}\in \mathbb{N}\bigg\}\tag{2}$$ Does this give $[0, 1]$ or $(0, 1]$? The key point is that $1/n \gt 0$ for all $n$, no matter how large $n$ is, so the point $0$ does not live in any of the sets $I_n$. So $S = (0, 1]$ which is not closed.


According to the author $(1)$ and $(2)$ are the same equation. But I disagree here. What does the author mean by the italicized part just below equation $(2)$?

My reason for asking is that equation $(1)$ is written with an upper limit of infinity. Therefore $I_{n=\infty}=[0,1]$, which contradicts the italicized part.

So I think the set, $(2)$ is $[0,1]$ (closed).

Am I wrong?

$\endgroup$
19
  • 2
    $\begingroup$ There is no limit involved, here. We just have a union of an "infinite number" of sets. I recommend to work through the definition of infinite unions of sets step by step. This works completely without limits. Sets do not approach a "limit" in the same way as sequences approach a value. There is no "epsilon-delta-definition" for an infinite union of sets. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 12 at 0:28
  • 2
    $\begingroup$ You can also phrase it as "There is at least one $n\in\mathbb{N}$ such that $\frac{1}{n}\leq x\leq 1$" or as "$\exists n\in\mathbb{N} : \frac{1}{n}\leq x\leq 1$". Does this help? $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 12 at 0:41
  • 3
    $\begingroup$ Would you understand it if it was written $S=\bigcup_{n \in \mathbb{N}} I_n$? Here it is clear that there is no limit involved, just a union of an infinite family of sets. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 12 at 3:29
  • 15
    $\begingroup$ Using $\infty$ in an index doe not mean you actually include something indexed at $\infty$. There is no $I_\infty$ and even if you defined $I_\infty = [0,1]$ (which is probably fine) $I_\infty$ is not an element of the sets being indexed. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 12 at 4:16
  • 9
    $\begingroup$ Actually the notation $\bigcup_{n=a}^\infty$ is probably very unfortunate. $\bigcup_{n=1}^k A_n = A_1 \cup A_2\cup .... \cup A_n$ is pretty clear but $\bigcup_{n=1}^\infty A_1$ does NOT mean $A_1 \cup A_2 \cup ..... \cup A_\infty$ (which doesn't make any sense). $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 12 at 4:18

6 Answers 6

25
$\begingroup$

This boils down to

  1. "Infinity is not a number" and

  2. $\bigcup\limits_{i=1}^\infty$ (or $\sum\limits_{i=1}^\infty$ or any index with $\infty$) is "just notation" and only means and means exactly what we say it means.

We use the notation $\bigcup\limits_{i=1}^{\color{red}n} A_i$ to be short-hand for $A_1\cup A_2\cup ..... \cup A_{{\color{red}n}-1} \cup A_{\color{red}n}$. That is notation and it means that because that is what we say it means.

That does not mean if I replaced $\color{red}n$ with something else that didn't make any sense it would mean the same thing. $\bigcup\limits_{i=1}^{-5}A_i$ can't mean $A_1 \cup A_2\cup .... \cup A_{-6} \cup A_{-5}$ because numbers just don't work that way and you can't count up to $-5$ starting at $1$.

And $\bigcup\limits_{i=1}^{\text{Big Bird, from Sesame Street}} A_i$ can not mean $A_1\cup A_2\cup ..... \cup A_{\text{Big Bird, from Sesame Street}-1} \cup A_{\text{Big Bird, from Sesame Street}}$ because that's just nonsense.

And likewise $\bigcup\limits_{i=1}^{\infty} A_i$ does not mean $A_1\cup A_2 \cup .... \cup A_{\infty - 1} \cup A_{\infty}$. That doesn't make sense because $\infty$ is not a number you count up to.

So what does $\bigcup\limits_{i=1}^\infty A_i$ actually mean?

Well we can have an union of a finite number sets... and we can have an union of an infinite number of sets. $A_1\cup A_2 \cup A_3 \cup ....... \cup A_{535798} \cup A_{535799} \cup ..... \cup A_n \cup A_{n+1} \cup ........ _{\text{it never ends}}...$

What should we use for notation for that?

Well, some bright guy had the idea that was both incredibly smart and incredibly stupid at the same time that if the notation of $\bigcup\limits_{i=1}^n A_i$ means the union of the the sets starting at $1$ and going up to $n$ then to to an infinite union we starting at one and never ending and we sometimes say "and go on to infinity"

(although if you think about it, that phrase "go on to infinity", although common is actually wrong-- we can't "go on" to infinity-- infinity is not a place we can "get to"-- we just... "go on" ... forever without end)

... and we sometimes say "and go on to infinity", then we can use the infinity symbol to indicate going on forever. So we use the notation $\bigcup\limits_{i=1}^{\infty} A_i$ to mean $A_1 \cup A_2 \cup A_3 \cup .....$.

It means what we say it means. It does not include any set labeled $A_\infty$.

And even if there were some set $A_{\infty}$ that is not actually included in the union.

In your case, sure, we can define $I_{\infty} = [0,1]$ if we want (we can define anything we want). But $I_{\infty} \ne I_k$ for any $k$ and $I_{\infty} \not\subset A_1 \cup A_2 \cup A_3 \cup ......... = \bigcup\limits_{n=1}^{\infty}I_n$.

And $\bigcup\limits_{n=1}^{\infty}I_n = (0, 1]$ for the reasons the book gives. $0 \not \in I_k$ for any $k$ so $0 \not \in A_1\cup A_2 \cup A_3.... $

(and for any $x\in (0,1]$ then for any $k > \frac 1x$ we have $\frac 1k < x \le 1$ so $x \in I_k$ so $x \in A_1\cup A_2 \cup ..... \cup A_k \cup A_{k+1} \cup .....$).

Now. We can say $(\bigcup\limits_{n=1}^{\infty} I_n)\cup I_\infty= (I_1\cup I_2 \cup I_3 \cup ........_{\text{it never ends}}....)\cup I_\infty = [0,1]$ but we can't use the notation $\bigcup\limits_{i=1}^\infty A_i$ to mean $(A_1\cup A_2 \cup..... ) \cup A_\infty$ because we already decided that that notation means something else. If we want notation for $(A_1\cup A_2 \cup..... ) \cup A_\infty$ we will have to come up with a different notation.

Addendum: ts;ri (too short; read intensely)

The notation $\bigcup\limits_{i=1}^{n}$ and $\bigcup\limits_{i=1}^\infty$ are actually shorthand. They are shorthand for $\bigcup\limits_{i=1....n}$ and $\bigcup\limits_{i=1....}$ which is to say for $\bigcup\limits_{i\in\{1,2,...., n\}}$ or $\bigcup\limits_{i\in \{1,2,.....\}}$ which is to say $\bigcup\limits_{i\in \mathbb J_n}$ or $\bigcup\limits_{i\in \mathbb N}$.

Which leads to the formal way to do this notation. $\bigcup\limits_{\alpha \in S} A_\alpha$ means that if you have some set $S$ and you index some collection of sets with elements of $S$, then $\bigcup\limits_{\alpha \in S}A_{\alpha}$ would mean the union of these indexed sets.

In this way we have $\bigcup\limits_{k\in \mathbb N} I_k = I_1 \cup I_2 \cup..... = (0, 1]$. While if $I_\infty = [0,1]$ we'd have $\bigcup\limits_{k \in (\mathbb N \cup \{\infty\})} = (I_1\cup I_2 \cup ......) \cup I_\infty = [0,1]$.

That would be the notation you need for what you want to do.

=======

Huge long discussions have come up in discussions so here are some point blank points.

  1. "that equation (1) is written with an upper limit of infinity"

That is not what the infinity sign means. The infinity sign is not a limit. The infinity sign is an indication of an indexing of an infinitely long sequence. It only has anything to do when taking actual limits. Otherwise it simply refers to have having a (countably) infinite indexed sequence of things.

So $\sum^{\infty}$ or $\bigcup^\infty$ or $\bigcap^\infty$ means "perform this on all terms". Nothing more, nothing less. It does not mean "perform this all on all terms and on the terms that these approach as a limit to".

You know. Even if you have something like $\lim_{n\to \infty} \frac 1n = 0$ we are not treating the infinity sign as a limit; we are treating the $\lim{}$ symbol as a limit. The $\infty$ sign only means to consider all the items in a sequence. It's the $\lim$ that tells you do take the limit.

So $\bigcup_{k=1}^{\infty} A_i$ means $A_1\cup A_2 \cup A_3 \cup .....$ but you do NOT include $A_{\infty}$. Even if you somehow define $A_\infty = \lim_{n\to \infty} A_n$ (assuming you have somehow defined the "limit" of a sequence of sets), we are not including $A_\infty$ in the union.

  1. "Therefore $I_{\infty}=[0,1]$"

Yes, if you define $I_{n} := [\frac 1n, 1]$ and you define $I_{\infty}:=[\lim_{n\to \infty} \frac 1n, 1]$ then, by your definition $I_\infty = [0,1]$.

  1. "which contradicts the italicized part"

No. It doesn't. Because $I_\infty$ is not included in the union. Only all the $I_k = [\frac 1k, 1]$ are included.

But the text took it for granted that $I_2\cup I_3 \cup I_4 \cup... = (0,1]$ without explanation. Here is why it follows:

If $x \le 0$ then for any $n\in \mathbb N$ then $x \le 0 < \frac 1n$ and $x \not \in I_n$ for any $n\in \mathbb N$. So $x \not \in \bigcup_{n=1}^\infty I_n$. (Remember: $I_\infty = [0,1]$ is NOT included in the union.

If $0 < x \ge 1$ then $\frac 1x \ge 1$ and there exists and $n\in \mathbb N$ so that $n > \frac 1x$. So $\frac 1n < x \le 1$. So $x\in I_n$. (In fact $x \in I_m$ fore all $m\ge n$). So $x \in \bigcup_{n=1}^\infty I_n$.

If $x > 1$ then for any $n\in \mathbb N$ then $\frac 1n \le 1 < x$ and so $x \not \in \bigcup_{n=1}^\infty I_n$.

So $x \in \bigcup_{n=1}^\infty I_n$ if and only if $0 < x \le 1$ if and only if $x \in (0, 1]$.

So $\bigcup_{n=1}^\infty I_n = (0,1]$ which is not closed.

  1. THEOREM. The limit points of $[a,b]$, $(a,b]$, $[a,b)$, and $[a,b]$ are exactly all the the points of $[a,b]$. Therefore $[a,b]$ is closed but $(a,b], [a,b),(a,b)$ are not (they do not all contain both the limit points $a$ and $b$ [but they do contain all the other limit points which are the all the points of $(a,b)$]).

prop: If $w < a$ then $w$ is not a limit point of any of the sets.

Proof. Let $\{w_n\}$ be a sequence that converges to $w$. Let $\epsilon = a-w > 0$. Then there is a $w_k$ so that $|w_k - w| < \epsilon$. This means $w_k < a$. (Because $|w_k - w| < \epsilon \implies -\epsilon < w_k -w < \epsilon \implies w-\epsilon < w_k < w+ \epsilon \implies 2w-a=w-(a-w)=w-\epsilon < w_k < a= w+(a-w) = w+\epsilon$). This means $w_k$ is not in all of the sets.

So there is no sequence that $\{w_n\}$ that converges to $w$ where all the terms are in the sets. So $w$ is not a limit point.

prop: If $w > b$ then $w$ is not a limit point.

Same argument as above. Let $\{w_n\}$ be a sequence that converges to $w$. Let $\epsilon = w-b> 0$. Then there is a $w_k$ so that $|w-w_k| < \epsilon$ and so $-\epsilon< w-w_k < \implies -w-\epsilon < -w_k < -w + \epsilon \implies w-\epsilon < w_k < w+\epsilon \implies b = w-\epsilon < w_k \implies w_k > b$ so there is no that converges to $w$ is in the sets.

prop: If $a < w < b$ then $w$ is a limit point of all sets.

Proof (trivial!). Let $w_k = w$ so the sequence $w_1,w_2,w_3,..... = w,w,w,w....$ trivially converges to $w$. (For any $\epsilon > 0$ and any $n \ge 1$ then $|w_n -w| = |w-w| = 0 < \epsilon$) and $w_k$ is in all the sets. So $w$ is a limit point.

prop: $a$ and $b$ are limit points of all sets.

Let $M = b-a > 0$ and let $u_k = a + \frac M{2^k}$ and $v_k=b-\frac M{2^k}$. Then for all $k\in \mathbb N$ we have $a < u_k =a+\frac M{2^k} < a+M =b$ so $u_k\in (a,b)$ and $u_k$ is in all the sets. And we have $a< w = b-M < b -\frac M{2^k} = u_k < b$. So $v_k$ is in all the sets.

And for any $\epsilon >0$ then for $N \ge \log_2 \frac M{\epsilon}$ we have $n > N \implies 2^n > \frac M{\epsilon} \implies \epsilon > \frac M{2^n}\implies a + \epsilon > a+\frac M{2^n} = u_n > a$. so $|u_n -a| < \epsilon$. So $u_k$ converges to $a$ and $u_k \in (a,b)\subset$ all the sets. So $a$ is a limit point of all the sets.

By the same argument $\epsilon > \frac M{2^n}\implies b-\epsilon < b-\frac M{2^n} = v_n < b$ so $|v_n-a| < \epsilon$. So $v_k$ converges to $b$ and so $b$ is also a limit point of all sets.

Note: even if $w=a$ then $v_k$ is in all sets and $v_k$ converges to $a$ so $a$ is a limit point of all sets (but we can't argue $u_k$ is in $(a,b)$). And even if $w=b$ then $u_k$ is in all sets and $u_k$ converges to $b$ so $b$ is a limit point of all sets (but we can't argue $v_k$ is in $(a,b)$).

We could have combine the arguments for $a\le w \le b$ means $w$ is a limit point of all sets but defining $M = w-a; K = b-w$ and $u_k$ and $v_k$ defined as above and noting that both sequences converge to $w$ and one or the other or both of the sequences are in each of the sets in question. So $w$ is a limit point of all sets even if $w$ isn't in all sets.

Note:

Trivial corollary. If $x \in S$ then $x$ is a limit point of $S$. (By your definition of limit points. Some texts specify a different definition of limit points.)

$\endgroup$
8
  • 6
    $\begingroup$ It's interesting to note that when working with computer code, where consistency is more important, half-closed intervals are often used. For instance, in Python, range(1,5) is the list of numbers $(1,2,3,4)$. If mathematicians had used that convention for finite sums, then $\cup_{n=1}^{\infty}$ - all the numbers up to but not including infinity - wouldn't be a special case. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 12 at 16:11
  • 3
    $\begingroup$ I like this answer the best. The key point is that when we write down $\infty$, we don't mean some number, but some very specific concept (that often changes depending on the context). $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 13 at 14:38
  • 2
    $\begingroup$ that often changes depending on the context. We often teach by analogy but analogies don't always hold up. In comments the OP mentioned they were taught $\frac 1\infty =0$ and $\frac 10 = \infty$ which is ... okay (I have issues but it's okay) and if so, yes indeedee, $I_\infty$ would mean $[\frac 1\infty, 1] = [0,1]$. But that's not the issue. The issue is $\bigcup_{k=1}^n$ means a) $k$ is an integer and b) $1\le k \le n$. By analogy that would mean $\bigcup_{k=1}^\infty$ means $k$ is an integer and b) $1\le k \le \infty$. But $\infty$ is not an integer!! $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 13 at 16:25
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ @Teepeemm I agree with you, this answer is the best imo also. This user seems to have almost a supernatural ability to appeal to someone's intuition. It shows in both the answers and comments. One thing is for sure: this person is excellent at getting their point across, and I respect that. Well done to fleablood. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 13 at 22:27
  • $\begingroup$ You wrote about some indexing typos but I can't actually find where I made them in this post. Point out where I'm unclear and I'll try to fix the typos. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 15 at 16:15
12
$\begingroup$

If $0$ belongs to the union, then it must belong to some single term, like $[1/n,1]$. But this is clearly impossible, no matter what $n$ might be. (This is the author's point.) There is no such thing as taking $n$ "equal to" $\infty$, so $I_\infty$ makes no sense.

$\endgroup$
1
  • $\begingroup$ Comments have been moved to chat; please do not continue the discussion here. Before posting a comment below this one, please review the purposes of comments. Comments that do not request clarification or suggest improvements usually belong as an answer, on Mathematics Meta, or in Mathematics Chat. Comments continuing discussion may be removed. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 15 at 16:54
4
$\begingroup$

If I have some collection of sets $(A_i)_{i \in I}$ (where $I$ is an “index set”), then by definition $$\bigcup_{i\in I} A_i=\{x \mid \exists i \in I,\; x \in A_i\}$$ When $I$ is some interval $\{n,n+1,\ldots\}$ of natural numbers, we usually notate this slightly differently as $\bigcup_{i=n}^\infty A_i$ but this is simply notation. It is defined to mean exactly $$\{ x \mid \exists i\geq n,\; x \in A_i\}$$ as before. There is no limit, nor $i=\infty$, nor $A_\infty$, since $\infty \notin \{n, n+1,\ldots\}$. In your example, $I=\{2,3\ldots\}$.

Here is a construction, to show that any set is a union of closed sets. Let $I\subset \mathbb{R}$ be any set. It could be an open interval, or $\mathbb{Q}$, or sets wilder than those. Then for $i \in I$, let $A_i=\{i\}$ the singleton set. Each $A_i$ is certainly closed, but $$\bigcup_{i\in I} A_i=\{ x \mid \exists i \in I, \; x \in A_i\}=\{ x \mid \exists i \in I, \; x\in \{i\}\}=\{ x \mid \exists i \in I, \; x=i\}=\{ x \mid x\in I\}=I$$ So we see that an arbitrary subset of $\mathbb{R}$ is a (possibly infinite) union of closed sets. This is the real reason that unions of closed sets need not be closed: in any metric space, unions of closed sets being closed would require all sets being closed.

$\endgroup$
4
$\begingroup$

When we write a union, sum, or product with upper and lower endpoints, e.g. $\sum\limits_{i=1}^{n}$, normally we mean that both endpoints are included, so the same thing as $\sum\limits_{1\leq i\leq n}$. But for $\infty$, by convention, we exclude the endpoint: $\sum\limits_{i=1}^{\infty}$ means $\sum\limits_{1\leq i<\infty}$.

This is usually also the more convenient interpretation, since often (as here) the "$\infty$ term" is not defined. But it can be annoying in cases where it is defined and you want to include it, for example when defining the expectation of a random variable taking values in $\mathbb N\cup\{\infty\}$.

$\endgroup$
2
$\begingroup$

Let $A, B$ be sets. Then we call the union of $A$ and $B$, written $$A \cup B = \{x : x \in A \vee x \in B\};$$ i.e., $A \cup B$ comprises all elements that are elements of $A$ or $B$. Extending this to a finite collection of sets $A_1, A_2, \ldots, A_n$, $$A_1 \cup \cdots \cup A_n = \bigcup_{k=1}^n A_k = \{x : \exists k \in \{1, \ldots, n\} \text{ s.t. } x \in A_k \};$$ that is to say, the union of the $A_k$ comprises all elements $x$ for which there is at least one of the $A_k$ that contains $x$.

So when we extend this to an infinite collection of sets, the definition is natural. We need not consider it as a limiting process. The set union notation is simply saying "here is a set of all elements that are contained in at least one of the constituent sets." That is the essence of the characterization of $(1)$ by $(2)$.

$\endgroup$
1
$\begingroup$

The easiest way to see that $0$ is not in the union is to note this. To be in the union, $x$ has to be an element of at least one set in the union. But $0$ is not an element of any $[1/n, 1]$, so it is not in the union.

For every $x > 0$, however, there is some $n$ for which $x > 1/n$, so it is in some set in the union, and therefore it is in the union.

$\endgroup$
1
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ This does somewhat repeat several of the other answers. OP's fundamental misunderstanding seems to be that they interpreted $\cup_{n=2}^\infty I_n$ as including $I_\infty$, which (under a reasonable interpretation) includes 0. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 20 at 16:47

You must log in to answer this question.

Start asking to get answers

Find the answer to your question by asking.

Ask question

Explore related questions

See similar questions with these tags.